Mi vami - Graph Database of the Talmud 1.0
Previous | Next | Shabbat 19b

לא יגמור ורבי אלעזר אמר רבי אלעזר היא דתנן חלות דבש שריסקן בערב שבת ויצאו מעצמן אסור ורבי אלעזר מתיר

He may not finish. And the amora Rabbi Elazar said: Our mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Elazar the tanna. As we learned in a mishna: With regard to honeycombs that he crushed on Shabbat eve and the honey came out on its own on Shabbat day, it is prohibited to eat the honey, like anything that was prepared on Shabbat. And Rabbi Elazar permits eating it on Shabbat.

ורבי יוסי בר חנינא מאי טעמא לא אמר כרבי אלעזר אמר לך התם הוא דמעיקרא אוכל ולבסוף אוכל הכא מעיקרא אוכל והשתא משקה ורבי אלעזר אמר לך הא שמעינן ליה לרבי אלעזר דאפילו זיתים וענבים נמי שרי דהא כי אתא רב הושעיא מנהרדעא אתא ואייתי מתניתא בידיה זיתים וענבים שריסקן מערב שבת ויצאו מעצמן אסורין רבי אלעזר ורבי שמעון מתירין ורבי יוסי בר חנינא ברייתא לא שמיע ליה

The Gemara asks: And Rabbi Yosei bar Ḥanina, what is the reason he did not say in accordance with the explanation of Rabbi Elazar? Apparently, Rabbi Elazar’s explanation in the mishna is more accurate. The Gemara answers: Rabbi Yosei could have said to you that there, in the case of the honeycombs, it is food from the beginning and it is food at the end, as honey is considered food. Therefore, there was no squeezing of liquid from food at all. However, here, in all of the cases in the mishna, from the beginning they were food and now they became liquid, and that is the definition of squeezing. And Rabbi Elazar could have said to you in response to this assertion: We heard that Rabbi Elazar permitted olives and grapes as well. As when Rav Hoshaya from Neharde’a came, he came and brought a baraita with him, in which it was taught: Olives and grapes that he crushed from Shabbat eve and the liquids seeped out on their own, the liquids are prohibited. Rabbi Elazar and Rabbi Shimon permit those liquids. The Gemara answers that Rabbi Yosei bar Rabbi Ḥanina did not know this baraita.

ורבי אלעזר מאי טעמא לא אמר כרבי יוסי בר חנינא אמר לך לאו איתמר עלה אמר רבא בר חנינא אמר רבי יוחנן במחוסרין דיכה דכולי עלמא לא פליגי כי פליגי במחוסרין שחיקה והני נמי כמחוסרין דיכה דמו הורה רבי יוסי בר חנינא כרבי ישמעאל

On the other hand, the Gemara asks: And Rabbi Elazar, what is the reason he did not say in accordance with the explanation of Rabbi Yosei bar Ḥanina, that our mishna is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yishmael? The Gemara answers: Rabbi Elazar could have said to you: Wasn’t it stated that Rava bar Ḥanina said that Rabbi Yoḥanan said: Here it is referring to items that lack grinding, i. e., when the garlic and the unripe grapes were not ground in a pestle at all, everyone agrees that it is prohibited to place them in a manner that causes their liquids to come out on their own on Shabbat. The case where they disagreed was where they were already completely ground, but they were still lacking additional pounding; and these cases in our mishna are also considered as if they were lacking grinding. The Gemara relates that Rabbi Yosei bar Ḥanina issued a practical ruling in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Yishmael, and permitted a person to finish tending to them even after dark.

שמן של בדדין ומחצלות של בדדין רב אסר ושמואל שרי הני כרכי דזוזי רב אסר ושמואל שרי אמר רב נחמן עז לחלבה ורחל לגיזתה ותרנגולת לביצתה ותורי דרידיא ותמרי דעיסקא רב אסר ושמואל אמר מותר וקמיפלגי בפלוגתא דרבי יהודה ורבי שמעון

Since the Gemara raised issues related to the olive press, it cites other connected matters: Oil of olive pressers and mats of olive pressers, which they use in their work, Rav prohibited moving them on Shabbat since they are set aside for a specific purpose, and it is prohibited to move an item set aside and designated for a defined purpose on Shabbat. And Shmuel permitted doing so, as according to Shmuel, the legal status of set-aside [muktze] does not apply in most cases. Along the same lines, they disagreed with regard to those mats used to cover merchandise transported on a ship. Rav prohibited using them because they are set aside and Shmuel permitted using them. Similarly, Rav Naḥman said: A goat raised for its milk, and a ewe that is raised for shearing its wool, and a chicken raised for its egg, and oxen used for plowing, all of which are designated for purposes other than eating, as well as dates used for commerce; in all of these Rav prohibited using them for food, or slaughtering them even on a Festival due to the prohibition of set-aside. The reason for this is that during the day, before Shabbat, he had no intention of eating them, as he set them aside for a different purpose. And Shmuel said: They are permitted, as in his opinion there is no prohibition of set-aside. The Gemara comments that they disagree in the dispute of the tanna’im Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Shimon with regard to the issue of muktze.

ההוא תלמידא דאורי בחרתא דארגיז כרבי שמעון שמתיה רב המנונא והא כרבי שמעון סבירא לן באתריה דרב הוה לא איבעי ליה למיעבד הכי הני תרי תלמידי חד מציל בחד מנא וחד מציל בארבע וחמש מאני וקמיפלגי בפלוגתא דרבה בר זבדא ורב הונא:

The Gemara relates: There was this student who issued a ruling in the city of Ḥarta De’argiz that items that are set aside are permitted, in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Shimon, and Rav Hamnuna excommunicated him. The Gemara asks: Don’t we hold that the halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Shimon? Why, then, did Rav Hamnuna excommunicate him? The Gemara answers: This incident was in the place of Rav and the student should not have done this; even if the accepted ruling is lenient, the city was under Rav’s jurisdiction, and the student’s public ruling, contrary to Rav’s opinion, was a blatant display of disrespect. Incidentally, the Gemara relates a story involving these two students: One would rescue from a fire with one vessel and one would rescue with four and five vessels, as it is permitted to rescue one’s belongings from a fire on Shabbat. They disagreed with regard to whether it is preferable to carry just one vessel and go back and forth several times, or to carry several vessels and go back and forth fewer times. And they disagree with regard to the same issue that was the subject of the dispute of Rabba bar Zavda and Rav Huna elsewhere.

מתני׳ אין צולין בשר בצל וביצה אלא כדי שיצולו מבעוד יום אין נותנין פת לתנור עם חשכה ולא חררה על גבי גחלים אלא כדי שיקרמו פניה מבעוד יום רבי אליעזר אומר כדי שיקרום התחתון שלה משלשלין את הפסח בתנור עם חשכה ומאחיזין את האור במדורת בית המוקד

MISHNA: This mishna enumerates actions that may only be performed on Shabbat eve if the prohibited labor will be totally or mostly completed while it is still day. One may only roast meat, an onion, or an egg if there remains sufficient time so that they could be roasted while it is still day. One may only place dough to bake into bread in the oven on Shabbat eve at nightfall, and may only place a cake on the coals, if there is time enough that the surface of this cake or bread will form a crust while it is still day. Rabbi Eliezer says: Enough time so that its bottom crust should harden, which takes less time. However in a case that is an exception, one may, ab initio, lower the Paschal lamb into the oven on Shabbat eve at nightfall, so that its roasting is completed on Shabbat if Passover eve coincides with Shabbat eve. And one may, ab initio, kindle the fire in the bonfire of the Chamber of the Hearth in the Temple on Shabbat eve, adjacent to the start of Shabbat, and allow the fire to spread afterward throughout all the wood in the bonfire.